Stupid things people say during debate.

Close to four years ago, I bought a digital voice recorder that I used to record interesting discussions I had with people about controversial topics. I recently took a look at the number of hours I had recorded back then, and it's a little over 35 hours of recordings. I have since stopped recording conversations and can only speculate how many hours it would be if I had a voice recorder my entire life. As I listened through old conversations, I notice themes on what people say and how they respond to different things.

On occasion I'll get into conversations with people who I personally categories as "non-philosophers" or "misologists." Of course this is a harsh thing to be called, but let me explain what I mean when I say this and how I personally identify them.

By "non-philosopher" I don't mean someone who is not a professor or student of philosophy, but rather someone who, by his own statements, reveals his ignorance of logical fallacies or errors in reasoning. By 'ignorance of logical fallacies' I don't mean ignorance of what "ad hominem" is or what a "compositional fallacy" is, but rather does not see them as fallacies. You don't actually have to know what term is used to identify a fallacy to know it's a fallacy.

By "misologists" I mean someone who, by his own statements, reveals a hatred of reasoning altogether. Of course this may not be conscious, but known by what they say.

Obviously all of this might be seen as very condescending of me, but frankly I don't care about that very much.

Here are small lists of 4 highly obnoxious themes found in too many discussions/debates I've had over the years. Anyone who says, or argues, one of these I personally consider a misologists or a non-philosopher.

1. "That's never going to happen"

Often in discussions of politics or philosophy the objection is that a hypothetical situation or thought experiment is not valid or worth considering because it "will never happen." This objection usually will come up when a thought experiment involves wildly bizarre or unlikely circumstances. Here's a small fictional account of what this looks like.

John: David, you see I believe in a kind of democracy where the will of the people rule, and if the will of the people is served that is just.David: All right, but don't you feel that some things are not up to a vote?

John: What do you mean?

David: Well, are you saying that if the great majority of the people voted to kill you, that would be just?

John: That's ridiculous! That's never going to happen.

David: Fine, but if you're position is that it's just for the will of the people to be served, and the people will your death, wouldn't that be just under your view?

John: David, that's just never going to happen.

This objection can only be made by someone who simply does not understand what a thought experiment is and what purpose it fulfills. A thought experiment is a proposal for an experiment that would test a hypothesis or theory but cannot actually be performed due to practical limitations; instead its purpose is to explore the potential consequences of the principle in question. In the case of John's position on democracy and justice, his principle was that it is just if it is the will of the people. If his principle is true and going to be held consistently then the consequence of that would be that it can be just to kill an innocent man. The fact that the circumstances in the hypothetical are bizarre or unlikely is completely irrelevant as to whether or not the principle is true.

One thing to point out is that the essence of all thinking involves considering hypothetical situations - most of which will never occur. Consider for a moment what it actually means to think about something. For example, thinking about whether to go camping in the woods or to the beach. When think about each option, you imagine the circumstances (i.e. the weather and things you may do). In essence you're playing with hypothetical situations in your mind. So it seems that to reject the use of a thought experiment on the grounds that it's "hypothetical" or "never going to happen" is really to reject the idea of thinking altogether, and to reject the idea of thinking altogether amounts to a hatred of reason and philosophy.

2. "Debating this topic is pointless since nobody will change their mind"

Often you'll find that some people will avoid discussing topics of importance or controversy on the grounds that debating it is pointless or not constructive since it's unlikely that either side will change their mind after the discussion. This defense can be found in many forms:

1. Why debate? It's not like you're going to convince him of anything he doesn't believe
2. I have my beliefs, you have yours, and we're not going to convince each

other of anything, so why bother?

I first want to point out that this presupposes that the purpose of debate is to convince your opponent that he is wrong. This is not at all obvious, and you could argue that the purpose or one of the purposes of debate is to test your ideas against others, or to convince an audience member. The truth is that the purpose of debating probably relies on the intention of the debaters, and is not some kind of defined thing.

Second, this seems to suggest that if a debate does not result in someone being convinced then it was not worth having. The notion that a debate is not worth having, or has little to no value if others are not convinced is just false. One can debate for enjoyment, to test his ideas against others, for the audience, or simply because he feels it's important. This objection could be used to argue why the presidential debates are pointless and are not worth having since both parties usually have strong convictions about what is best for the nation.

Third, whether or not someone is convinced immediately after the debate does not mean they will not eventually be convinced. I personally have had many beliefs and ideas of mine changed as the result of debates I had months before, and I probably would have never changed my position on those things if I had not engaged in debate with others. The truth is that false ideas are best exposed by testing them against other ideas in debate. As David Hume said, "Truth springs from argument among friends."

3. "That's just your opinion"

Another common reason people give to justify why it's not worth their time to discuss important or controversial topics is to brush off the discussion as simply "your opinion against mine." The idea is that debating whether or not there ought to be a minimum wage or whether god exists is like debating which ice cream is best; it at the end of the day is just a "matter of opinion."

Opinion - a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty

There are three things to say about this. First, pointing out that someone's belief is a matter of opinion is uttering something meaningless since the definition of opinion is almost synonymous with 'belief.' It's like dismissing someone's argument on the grounds that "It's just a bunch of words put together."

Second, what is relevant in debating an issue is not whether or not something is an opinion but the level of evidence or justification for that opinion. Opinions are not all created equal, some may be supported by better reasons.

Third, there are many things that are considered knowledge today that were once opinion: the shape of the earth, the cause of lightning, and what causes illness are a few examples. The shape of the earth, and its position in the universe was at one time a theological issue debated amongst religious people. You could have easily dismissed debating the position of the earth's place in the universe as a "matter of opinion" or "your religious beliefs against mine." The fact that something happens to be an opinion currently has no relevance on whether it may be knowledge in the future, and it's through debating different positions that we can come to understand something is knowledge. So ultimately refusing to take part in a discussion of 'opinions' is refusing in discussing the truth, and refusing to discuss the truth amounts to a rejection of philosophy altogether.

4. "Pressing your beliefs on others"

Some object to debating topics of importance or controversy on the grounds that it's somehow rude or immoral to "press your beliefs on others." The idea is that provided an argument on why something is true amounts to trying to "convert someone" or "cram your beliefs down their throat" and those are both bad things to do.

First, a belief is either true or false. This is a rather simple premise, and is hard to find anyone who disagrees. A belief or set of beliefs can be reduced to statements about the world. When one says "I believe the basket ball is in the closet" one is claiming to belief the statement "the basket ball is in the closet" is true. The statement is true if it corresponds to reality, which is to say, such a statement about the world is true if it 'maps on' to the real world.

There are some though, and they are not hard to find, who will object saying "Those beliefs are true to them" or "We're all right in our own way" and often resort to the Elephant in the room story. In various versions of the tale, a group of blind men (or men in the dark) touch an elephant to try and discover what it is. Each one touches a different part, but only one part, such as the side or the tusk. They then compare notes on what they felt, and learn they are in complete disagreement. The story is used to indicate that reality may be viewed differently depending upon one's perspective. Each blind man says "It's a rope!" or "It's a wall!" the story ends as follows:

"They began to argue about the elephant and everyone of them insisted that he was right. It looked like they were getting agitated. A wise man was passing by and he saw this. He stopped and asked them, "What is the matter?" They said, "We cannot agree to what the thing we're touching is." Each one of them told what he thought it was. The wise man calmly explained to them, "All of you are right. The reason every one of you is telling it differently because each one of you touched the different part. So, actually the elephant has all those features what you all said."

If you find yourself in a conversation on religion with a liberal minded person, you will hear this story many times. It's the "We're all right in our own way" kind of mentality that is more of a preschool "We're all winners!" type of thinking. One blatant flaw in the story is, although each one felt a different part of the same "truth" - they were all wrong! It was NOT a rope, a wall, a tree, it was an Elephant! Each man made false statements about the world, namely that the object they were touching was something other than an Elephant.

2. Holding true beliefs is better than holding false ones.

(one is better off holding true beliefs)

Beliefs translate into actions, and actions effect people. If those beliefs are false, you're almost certainly wasting a lot of time. Consider the belief that the gods require a child sacrifice in exchange for rain this month. If such a belief is true, then it may be justified, if however that belief is false, you're simply killing an innocent child. What people believe matters; it matters only because of the potentially wasteful or harmful implications of those beliefs being false.

3. Helping people in ways that is better for them is good.

If people are better off holding true beliefs, and helping people in ways that is better for them is good, then it follows that helping people hold true beliefs is good. Of course, helping people hold true beliefs can only be done by providing good reasons and argument, which is precisely what 'converting someone' ultimately is. If you agree with premise 1, 2, and 3 you simply can not condemn or criticize someone for making attempts to 'convert the lost.'

Another thing to point out about this defense is not only immoral and cold hearted, but self-refuting. To better understand how this is the case, we must turn to the actual definition for 'convert.'

convert. (v)

1) To change (something) into a different form or properties.

2) To persuade or induce to adopt a particular religion, faith, or belief.

The second definition given is more appropriate given the context. To convert someone is to persuade them into believing whatever proposition is being presented.

persuade. (v)

1) To induce to undertake a course of action or embrace a point of view by means of argument, reasoning, or entreaty.

To be more specific, to 'convert' someone is to persuade them by means of argument and reason. So if you grant the definition of convert, or persuade, any instance where someone attempts to convince someone of a proposition by means of reason or argument is by definition attempting to convert that person. Therefore the very act of telling someone they are rude for attempting to convert others, if followed by reasons like "I think you should not do this for reason X" is by definition an act of persuasion which is what converting someone is! So to convince one that converting others is rude is in itself a form of conversion! The entire complaint is self-refuting.

By: David Campbell
Originally written: 2007